Moments to Movements
Moments to Movements explores the transformative journeys of young changemakers turning inspiration into sustained social change. In Season 2, we shift our storytelling lens to Kigali, Rwanda, guided by vibrant new host Vivi Ndaya. Each episode dives into powerful conversations on dependency narratives, accountability, digital activism, and the deeply personal experiences of youth leaders worldwide. Join us as we highlight compelling stories, discuss the realities of changemaking, and share essential insights to empower you to turn your own moments into meaningful movements.
Moments to Movements
Cancel Culture vs. Accountability
In this episode, we sit down for an honest, globally informed conversation about cancel culture, what it is, what it isn’t, and whether it’s actually creating real accountability.
Together with our guest, we reflect on personal experiences, public moments, and the cultural tension between calling people in versus calling them out. Is cancel culture a tool for justice or a cycle of shame? How do we differentiate between true accountability and performative backlash? And what role does forgiveness play in public discourse today?
This episode is both thoughtful and unfiltered, blending humor, lived experience, and practical insight into how we navigate public mistakes, growth, and second chances in the digital age.
Tune in for a nuanced take on justice, power, and the future of accountability in a connected world.
Moments to Movements is presented by Peace First.
It is executive produced by Isaac Cudjoe and Nadia Posada. Researched with help from Zachary Tombo.
Hello, hello, beautiful people. Welcome back to the Moments to Movements podcast, season two, episode three. For the past few episodes, we talked about sugar daddies versus foreign aid. We talked a little bit about, you know, where have all the grants gone? You know, the grant drought that is going on. And now for episode three, we will be talking about cancel culture versus accountability. Is that not an interesting topic? Though with me, my wonderful, beautiful I'm Nati
SPEAKER_00:Bulcho. I go to school in Philadelphia doing my MBA currently at the Wharton School of Business and really excited to be part of the podcast today. I think you've got a really interesting topic and conversation and one that people think about, but I don't know how deeply they engage with it. So looking forward to diving into it with you today.
SPEAKER_02:Definitely, definitely. Thank you so much for accepting the invitation and joining us. I'm sure we are going to have an absolutely wonderful, wonderful webinar. Beautiful. And hopefully a conversation that will not get us
SPEAKER_01:cancelled. That's the goal. That will
SPEAKER_02:not get us cancelled. That is the goal.
SPEAKER_01:It would be so
SPEAKER_02:ironic. All right, then. You know, we've seen the craze on social media, people getting cancelled for the most random things. Sometimes you might even think, damn, did that person actually really, really deserve what they got? So I have a question for you. And this is going to like, you know, set the tone. Have you ever directly experienced Yeah. Great, great, great
SPEAKER_00:question. There's the personal side and then there's kind of the, you know, what we've all seen with celebrities and things. But from a personal side, I have had a few situations in which there have been people that I've known who have gotten canceled. Honestly, I don't even like that term, but that's the term that we use today. And to me, cancellation really means people basically disregard you. They like kind of leave you out to dry on your own, right? It's almost like you are like thrown off a ship, but you're not given a lifeboat or anything to save you and you're just kind of swimming by yourself. And so I have seen a couple situations where that's happened. One of the tough things I think that I think about sometimes is cancel culture can get really pervasive when there is an accusation, but not a lot of information accessible. And so The challenge sometimes is people can get canceled off of an accusation before all the information on something has come out. But depending on how serious that accusation might be, people immediately just say like, oh, wow, this person's being accused of doing this terrible thing. Even if this isn't the whole truth, even if this is maybe slightly less, quote unquote, bad, I'm just going to completely disassociate. with that person or I'm going to think about them differently before they've even had a chance to defend themselves or say anything. And we'll probably dive into more of this later around social media and things. But I feel like the social media culture has really created a train almost of cancellation, where a lot of times, like someone or an organization or a business, whatever the case might be, they might not actually want to cancel someone immediately. or like fire them or like distance themselves from that person. But because of the way that the public kind of swell of like sentiment goes, people feel a pressure themselves as a business. Like I don't want to get canceled as a business or as an organization. Yeah. So before you place your blame or frustration on me, let me go ahead and give the people quote unquote what they want and like distance myself from this person. So I've seen that happen a few times. And it's a tough thing to witness because sometimes people can feel like they didn't get a chance to defend themselves.
SPEAKER_02:No, definitely. I mean, like, you know, especially I've also the digital age we live in as well plays a very, very big role. And I think you slightly touched on it when you mentioned the whole social media thing. So I have a question, right? In your perspective, do you think that cancel culture would exist if social media didn't exist because if we look at where it stemmed from the most it's usually online bashing online dragging and whatever the case may be you know you don't at least for me i've not really heard of like cancel culture in like my immediate environment maybe yes someone did something outrageous and people stay away from them but do you think that social media um amplifies the extent to which people are criticizing or whatever the case may be? And do you also feel like social media gives people the platform to just act however the hell they want to act? Because, you know, a lot, you know? But yeah, like ultimately, like, you know, social media plays a very big role. So I just want to get like your perspective on like, how do you think it would be if maybe social media didn't play a role in cancel culture?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I think it's a great question. The tough thing is even stepping back from social media, I think... the digital age that we're in, the biggest thing that it's done is that it's proliferated information, access to information. Before there can be a cancel culture, people have to have access to the information from which they cancel people. From what I observed, in the past, if someone did something, said something, had a particular belief or perspective, that information might be known to their immediate circle or the people they engage with face to face, you know, in their lives. But that information isn't going to be proliferated where tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of people now know about your view on something or maybe what you've done. There was really a way to even from like a public relations perspective, kind of contain the damage that was happening from what maybe you said or did. And so I think that the digital age and social media now has allowed people, one, of course, to have access to this information, and then two, to have a venue to respond and opine on it as if you're like your own journalist at home sitting back and proving your perspective on everything. And I think that we have a lot of Twitter soldiers, is the way I'd put it, or ex-soldiers where you can be really brave behind a mask or behind your username where no one can really come at you. I don't have to put my name. I could put like NB7377. You have no idea who that is.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, anonymous, mysterious, incognito mode.
SPEAKER_00:And I can say whatever I want. I can post whatever I want. I can even like with disinformation that we see a lot of times, right? We see it in politics all the time, right? Where people post different things. And depending on the types of information that you access or even that you want to see, your algorithm on some of these social media sites starts trending to give you more of that type of information, whether it's true or not. And so I think that it can be very easy, for example, if someone wants to cancel someone or is in an environment where the people that think like them have decided we're going to cancel, quote unquote, X person, that now my sources of information, my sources of news and media feed into that also. So in my mind, social media has played a big role in this. Honestly, it's a dangerous role. And I think that we have moved away from a society that really can hold people accountable and watch them or want them to grow out of their mistakes and develop to one that is ready to just cut bait with people and basically say good riddance and cancel them, meaning like we want nothing to do with you and there's no room for you to grow. So it's a dangerous space. I think it's great that social media has proliferated information to give people access. But at the same time, it's also become this train that builds upon itself and eventually can just become an echo chamber.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. You have highlighted a very significant point with regards to social media. We know social media, there's the dangers, there's the good that it has for sure. It has helped people amplify their voices. It has raised awareness to really good causes. But then at the same time, it amplifies sometimes the most trivial things. And you have a lot of gullible people out there. There are a lot of gullible people. And sometimes, you know, they always say, don't believe everything you see on social media. But there are those people that literally believe every single thing they see on social media. And you touched on something about like accountability and grace in a sense, right? So I want you to talk, actually, we're going to talk about a bit about the redemption and recovery aspect from being cancelled. Say, for instance, someone has now gotten cancelled. Is there ever really like true recovery from that cancellations that they have experienced I mean you know putting aside you know the PR apologies that they come out and do it. They're just like, oh, I really apologize. I didn't mean to do this. And then you get some people that time and time again make the same mistakes. So in that aspect, like, do you ever think there's like a true comeback? Can people actually make a true comeback? Or do you feel like it's just over? Are they just going to be like ghosted forever at the end of the day?
SPEAKER_00:So I'm a consultant by trade. That's what I've spent my career doing in business. And so the answer that we give oftentimes that no one likes is it depends It
SPEAKER_02:depends. Oh, it depends.
SPEAKER_00:In this case, it does depend, but I'll explain what it depends on. First of all, one thing I just want to say that we forget sometimes is that we are all people in process. We are all. People that are in the process of becoming and becoming requires us to evolve into things and it also requires us to evolve out of things. And I think that sometimes we can forget that and we can forget that when it comes to somebody else and their process of growth or development. And in my mind, do I think that there's ever a case where someone can't recover from what they've done? I would say it's hard for me to say never. But what I would tell you is this. Depending on the severity of what someone has done, especially if it's a criminal activity, like we see like celebrities going to jail, you know, or like in trials right now. And depending on the severity of what they've done, their level of accountability might result in them serving the rest of their life in prison or serving a very long prison sentence. And what I would caution people is them facing a life sentence or a long prison sentence doesn't mean that road to recovery is over. Like healing can happen in a prison, right? Healing doesn't have to happen in a public sphere, in a public space.
SPEAKER_01:And
SPEAKER_00:so I think that there is room for people who do want to change, right, and who have recognized that what they've done was wrong for them to have the space and room to change that. Now, does that mean that the public sentiment about them will ever change? Probably not, right? The public sentiment may always stay that way. But I think from a cancel culture perspective, while people are getting canceled or have times when, you know, others are no longer believing that they can change, there are opportunities for them to And the last thing that I'll mention is it's a touchy subject, especially if you've been the victim, right, of something that someone did that caused them to get canceled. There's a perspective also, on the other hand, where forgiveness means I have to allow this person back into my life. That's what true comeback means. And that's not true, right? Forgiveness is really released, right? So I can release the thing that has happened, but I can also still have the wisdom and discernment to release it. to establish a boundary for myself. And so I've forgiven, or like the public quote unquote has forgiven what's happened and has given the person the space to grow and develop. But that doesn't mean I need to give you access back into my life. And it also doesn't mean I need to be a part of your redemption story, right? Maybe I can point you to resources. I can point you to things that can help you develop and help you learn and grow from your mistake. But it doesn't necessarily mean I have to be part of the redemption story for you. You can come to, you can have a comeback and I can forgive you without us engaging in that, you know, like engaging with each other and your redemption.
SPEAKER_02:That was a very interesting perspective that you pointed out. You know, sometimes I think by what you've said, One can say it's not a one size fits all kind of situation. I would have asked or like, but I think you kind of sort of touched on it a little bit. I was going to ask like, how would a genuine, like, you know, genuine recovery look like to you? Because it's very easy to say, oh, I'm sorry for what happened. And that can be the end of it. You know, some people don't take the actionable steps or some people don't have the actions to back up their recovery. But then at the same time, you know, you've mentioned grace. a lot. And I think you mentioned like, you know, sometimes there are organizations or businesses that are involved with these public figures that maybe, you know, get canceled at the end of the day. Do you think we should see more organizations backing these people up or should they pull away?
SPEAKER_00:It's a tough thing to consider. One thing I will say just to set kind of the table here is that your mistake, whatever it is that you do that has caused you to quote unquote be canceled, doesn't have to define you, but your response to that will define you. And now the question becomes for a funder or for a business or for whoever's associated with it, am I willing to be part of your comeback story, number one? And if I am willing to do that, what avenue... am I going to take and which to do that? Because I can be an advocate for you, the person. I can be a support to you, the person. I can provide resource to you, the person, while also at the same time having severed ties with you from a business or organizational standpoint. And I think that it does, of course, depend on the situation. Obviously, if it's something like criminal, right, that's happened, and you say, I didn't know any better. I saw crime happening, so I also did crime. It's hard for, you know, like, It's hard for me as a business or as a funder to support that because you did commit a crime. I can empathize with you, but I can also empathize without enabling. And so there's an element of which I can understand, OK, this happened and I'm sorry that this happened. And I can understand it from what you're sharing with me. Perhaps you were in an environment that was not conducive to helping you make the right decisions. And you truly might not have, quote unquote, known better because we're all shaped by our experiences.
SPEAKER_01:But
SPEAKER_00:at the same time, I also know as an organization, I have more than just you kind of to protect here. I have a business to protect. I have a brand to protect. I have a entire kind of ecosystem within my purview that I have to be responsible to, right? Investors potentially to be responsible to, organizations and partners to be responsible to. And out of respect, out of stewardship really to those businesses and to those and to those environments, I would say that there are times when it makes sense to sever ties and it makes sense to walk away. You have to gather the information that you can and you do the best of the information that you have. So we're not jumping to conclusions and completely canceling someone, but we're also not standing idly by and not doing anything either. And we're being kind of clear on how we're approaching it. So that's kind of the nuance I would take. But it really is a case-by-case dependent type of thing. There's no one size fits all or an HR policy that kind of checks the mark for
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's a pretty nuanced one.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Cancel culture in itself is quite complex as well. You know, people have different perspectives. People have different opinions. And now I think I want to shift your mind a little bit away from cancel culture, right?
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:So we speak a lot about cancel culture, but if you were to imagine a, should we call it a restorative culture, a world where we had a restorative culture, what do you think that would look like? I
SPEAKER_00:would say it, I wouldn't call it realistic, to be honest. Unfortunately, it's very idealistic. And I think that a restorative culture for me is one. So me personally, right, you're asking me. So in my life, I'm someone who walks with, tries to walk with a heart for restoration. And that's modeled for me in my faith. I'm a Christian. And for me, I believe that Jesus exemplified restoration. what restoration looks like. And so where someone was cast aside, oftentimes he was the one to lift them up. Where someone was turned away, he was the one to look towards them. Where someone was uninvited, he was the one to see them in a crowd and invite them in. A society that is a restorative culture in my mind is one that, number one, recognizes, like I said earlier, that we are all people in process. We're not finished people. We're not finished creations. We're not finished products. If you're willing to, you're never too far beyond reproach to change certain habits, perspectives, or beliefs. And so a restorative culture for me is one that starts with a recognition that each of us is made in the image of God, but we are all in the process of continuing to draw closer to the full potential and purpose that we've been given, there are hiccups that we might face along the way. And we are on a journey, in my mind, restoration is walking with people in their process of growth and not walking out on them. So that's what restoration really looks like to me. It takes time. It takes investment. Ultimately, it takes a lot of discernment because you have to know who you can give your time to and who you can give your access to. It's about understanding what roles do we play in each other's lives? How do we kind of take a step back and not put on like a, you know, holier than thou kind of mindset? Like, look at this person, look at what they did. Look at, I would never do such a thing. Well, you don't know. Yeah. You don't have. You never
SPEAKER_02:know.
SPEAKER_00:And a private jet that can take you anywhere you want and security that can cover up any like secret things that you try to do. You don't have access to all those. And if you did, who knows what you would do? Maybe you'd be right and maybe you wouldn't have these issues. Or maybe you'd be worse.
SPEAKER_01:So
SPEAKER_00:it's very hard to assume. And it's easy for us to play the game in our minds. But in reality, we don't know what it would look like. When I live with a mindset of recognizing that, you think of yourself like you don't think less of yourself you just think of yourself less and you start and you don't inflate kind of your ability over other people's and it gives you a grace to recognize hey They're just as human as we are and they face the challenges that we all face. And let's see how we can provide each other room to grow, learn, develop and build.
SPEAKER_02:Definitely. Oh my gosh. That was a very jam-packed restoration imagination that I just went through. I think like one thing that I, one significant thing I took away from what you said is like, you know, we are human, you know, human beings are unpredictable. So I think like grace is something that's very, very important, you know, But also it's about being able to give people the avenue to actually grow. I think that is something that cancel culture or the cancel culture does not really emphasize enough. The fact that, okay, this person has been canceled. They've made a mistake. Mistakes is part of life, you know. They've made a mistake. How do we grow from this mistake?
SPEAKER_00:I've had situations where I didn't talk to someone for several years and then they came back out and reached out to me. And we're like, hey, I know you said these things to me a few years ago. I've been reflecting on it. And actually, I think that this was really useful and you were right. And I'm trying to walk in some of the things that we had discussed all those years ago. Would you be willing to have a conversation? I just want to get your thoughts on a few things. And I'm more than happy to do that because I'm like, thank God that I didn't completely turn my back on them. Because otherwise, even if they wanted to change, right, now they feel like they have no one to talk to because all the people that were encouraging them to change have walked away.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, definitely. You know, that's why... Like it also just still goes back to the fact that, you know, you can't really put these things in a specific box. People react differently. Sometimes they react out of what they have known or what they understand. Or sometimes, you know, the moment you mess up, that's like people, there's some people you'll be surprised they are waiting for the day that you mess up so that they can either snap at you or they can just completely disconnect from you. So, yeah, like, you know, there's different aspects to this thing. But really, honestly speaking, how we react is different. important how we perceive these things is also important and being able to understand that human beings are human beings and sometimes all someone needs to be able to propel them into their journey to restoration is someone to give them grace and I think with that we can close off this episode it has been an absolute joy you spoke from a perspective of you know insights really just very knowledgeable and I thoroughly enjoy thank you so much for accepting the invitation to the viewers it has been great stay curious to learn about many things stay hydrated and yeah that is the end of this episode we'll see you in the next one all right bye